Well, my experience of getting radiance armour is pretty limited... considering I'm level 29 in the North Downs. Does it count as Radiant if I cover my Cloak of Moderate Usefulness with Shiny Baubles?
I'm not really sure. But i think that glittering lipgloss would count. Aren't you elves into that kinda stuff?
Anyway my experience with radiance gear is limited as I am only lvl 53. The most experience I have with it is that it hurts your eyes when those guys pass you in broad daylight.
All this hoodoo about radiance gear can sometimes be a bit controversial. Some folks will tell you that the game is a journey, and that any rush to get to 60 and get all the "uber" gear is missing the point. This is a very valid concern. Most of us at LOTROinfo have been playing a very long time and are only now reaching this threshold. For the most part, I don't think we rushed it.
But still, every MMO must deal with the reality that eventually players reach a maximum level. A maximum that must exist purely for the sake of game balance (why bother designing interesting encounters if players are going to stomp all over them through sheer power). There is fair bit of group content for lower level players, but a lot of it gets passed over by a large portion of the player base. (Garth Agarwen and Fornost, and to a lesser extent, the Great Barrows, I'm looking at you). Therefore, it often seems to make a lot of sense to design a sizable portion of content for players at the level cap, so that they have stuff to do when they reach it. I don't see it as the end of the journey. Just another part of it.
I'm very interested in what you guys, even the low level folks, think about all this. Is it something you might look forward to in even the remotest future, or does it really not interest you at all? Do you have any specific concerns with how it is implemented (such as how everyone starts to look the same)? Does the prospect of potentially doing the same content multiple times leave a bad taste in your mouth? Your opinion counts too.
I have played some MMO's but in only 2 I have come close to raiding.
LOTRO and WOW
In WOW I was actually ready. I was top lvl and attuned to kharazan but then for some reason I just stopped playing. Now what was that reason again? Oh Right. LOTRO.
In Lotro I am close to raiding as I'm nearing the lvl cap and I intend to play the game till the developers say "Enough is enough Mr Hirunath. All other players have allready quit you are the only one left. Besides the nurses are waiting to change your diaper and put you in bed". So I'm pretty sure I'll be a raider too. And the prospect of doing somethings over and over again don't really bother me. Right now when I reach the lvl cap and I start raiding it'll be all new to me but the bosses will probably be farm material once they have the correct strategy. So raiding becomes a bit a routine. But I have no fear of this. LOTR is such a deep world with soo many possibilities that there will be new instances with new bosses and they need to be raided tested and subdued as well. I can't wait to be part of a raid who enters a totally new boss his lair and try ways to kill it.
On the matter of the lower lvl content I must say that I have had the chance of going into every instance there was, except Fornost. I defeated sambrog, Ivar, the redmaid (can't remember what she's called). I've done in helchgam and others. But as you say there are a lot of people who burn through the lvls to reach that maximum lvl and start gathering that great gear.
On my server this leads to hard to find fellowships for lower lvl instances. They just want to get the Epic chain out of the way and move on. Also I tend to think that people these days have the attention span of a fly with ADHD.
They simply don't plan ahead anymore. For instance I am searching for someone to help me on an epic quest. I have been asking around for hours when I finally find a fellowship I see people starting to LFF for that same quest I have been asking around for for 3 hours. Mind you these are not people that just logged in. These are people I have come across in the area while LFFing.
Players these days don't look at there lff screens no more unless it so happens to be the quest they are on at that exact moment. I can't remember how many times I got a fellowship quest done when I wasn't seeking a fellowship by watching the lff screen and seeing someone who needs company on a fellowship quest that I have in my quest list.
That's one part. The other part is about people wanting to squeeze the maximum gain out of the shortest playing time possible. Mind you I do this too but I'm squeezing out the fun. A lot of players these days simply skip beautifull instances just for the fact that it doesn't give them as good XP compared to the time invested in the instance as they would get with normal questing.
They are missing a great world with a lot of lore for the simple effect of "Durh. I'm lvl 60 and I can Pwnzor all these guys. I'm 2 l33T 4 U." (God that's an awefull language)
Anyway
This is me again ranting away.
Greetings
Niels
PS: I now have to go wash myself to wash away the L33T speak stench.
After playing Runescape, WoW and now LOTRO, there are definitely the same types of people in all games...
When I first joined LOTRO my immediate thought was that I enjoyed the friendliness of the people in the game. Some lady from a Lore-Master guild sent me a message and asked me if I needed any help. Since I'd only been playing for about three days on a trial account, I graciously accepted. Four days later my account expired and that was lost, but I remembered the kind heart.
I've played WoW with some guys who were always interested in raiding, PvP, Warsong Gulch etc. I can certainly appreciate the need/greed of those scenarios, but I've always been interested in the more immersive play. (for example, I used to hang out in Westfall in case people need some help, with my lvl 60 warlock). I never made it to endgame, though I came close at the time (level 69). My friends used to run around from quest to quest, not even reading the text, just the "what do I need to get" parts. No wonder they were raiding while I was mining in Darkshire.
These same guys are now playing LOTRO, and for some reason, they've slowed down quite a bit. They are reading the content, and sometime actually sending me messages about it. Wow (no pun intended). That's astounding. There is something about LOTRO that keeps people coming back, and slowing them down to an enjoyable pace.
As for the epic books... I was so caught up in the content of the game in general, the richness of the environment (flowing trees, nice sky, etc), that I didn't even realize I was following an epic path until it said "You have completed the intro quests" and dumped me into Book I. Pretty cool that it's so seamless, and that you can choose to follow (or not) the Epic quest line, come back to it whenever you want, and just randomly run around everywhere. I also don't miss the days of being accidentally flagged as PvP and getting my butt kicked by a level 70 horde. :)
So, all of that blah blah blah, just to say that there are still people in LOTRO who use abbreviations for everything "LFF 2.4 3/4 healer dps dot pdq asap rsvp", and there are still people who RP non-strop ("Agell nods her head slightly to the man as he leaves the Prancing Pony before turning back to Rogald and continuing their conversation..."), and there are still people who have nothing better to do than to whine about who's going to run them through what ("I know I'm only a 14 minstrel, but I really need Orth, can sum1 run me? plz i'll pay 15s for your time /beg"). And of course, there's the bickering inside guilds (that usually have made me stay as a lone adventurer for the most part) "Well he's not very nice, he said I should ask my mom's permission, but she's busy running my younger brother through Fornost /stickstongueout" - "yeah, GM can you kick him? my alts need invites too, can you promote me to officer so I can invite them (and my friends and their 95 alts) /please"
People don't change, just the games they play. However, LOTRO tends to attract some more mature gamers who are as interested in learning the lore as helping others get through some tough spots.
Well that is just beautifull.
I must say that what you say is absolutly right.
It takes all different sorts of people that play a game.
Some like it this way some like it the other. But the fact that lotro draws in more mature players then wow does is absolutly right.
As a former WoW player I must say that I too never read the quests in wow. Reason?
1) They were way too big at times.
2) There was no noteworthy story that bound the areas together. Off course most players know the story from warcraft but to be honest. It isn't all that. There was a war. Things got dead and dead things got somewhat upgraded to "not so dead". But what am I doing here? I popped into a world and the first thing they asked me was "Go kill 10 kobolds". Euhm. Where am I? What the hell am I doing here? Who the hell are you actually? Those are all questions that weren't answered in WoW. So people tend to not care after a while. The answers weren't gonna come so why bother to ask?
In lotro on the other hand you come into the world with a story. You are locked into a prison with a ranger named Haldir who asks you to help him break out and give those bandits a good wooping. At the end of that simple but wonderfull instance and a short tutorial to the game you arrive in a town with same wounded ranger. The town is beset by the same bandits that locked us up so they must be friends as they are taking care of our wounds. Let's help em out. And as a grand finisher you help in the defence of the town as the bandits attack it. You come out as victorious and feel great for having done such a great thing even at that lvl and you can't wait to find more people that are in need of something valuable stolen by some orcs or bandits. At the same time in WoW our new adventurer arrives in a new town and is asked to kill some boars because they want to make some stew. You are going to make stew for HOW MANY people?
In lotro you arrive in every area with a purpose that led you there through a nicely woven together story and quests that make sense. (Most of them anyway)
I think this is what makes people slow down. They are living a story that evolves and goes on around them through a beautifull world created over a period of 50 years by a mastermind in literature. It has it's own story everything has it's purpose it has a DETAILED 5000+ year history. You see that history everywhere.
This is a fact that simply is not and I doubt that it will ever again be offered in any game. I advice people not only to see the movies but read the books as well. Read them in English as otherwise a lot of the translation is lost. When you have read the book you know what old forrest is. You know what Bombadil does living there.
When you have read the book you actually will go out exploring. You want to see all the places discribed in the book. I have been to the three trolls even before I got the quest. Simply because of the fact that I wanted to see them.
Hmm I think I went a bit off topic there.
Anyway in short what I wanted to say is that LOTRO has a dept to it and a way to pull you in that no other game can match.
Some people have the ridiculous idea of buying a high level character with "uber" gear. Just so that they can run around /yelling "I'm uB3rz. I du3l and pwnz ne1z. Du3l me or u r sc4r3d!1!!11!"
It is that same idea that people will buy a game and then just use cheat-codes to the game in God-mode or whatever. The irony that they are never aware of in both these cases that they get bored soon and stop playing. Why? I think it comes down to this: Because they don't feel they have as much of investment. They bought their character so it doesn't really feel like "their" character. They also don't really know how to play so they really can't do anything at an endgame level. So go figure.
On the other hand, when you get own character to high level, not only do you have all that time and effort stored in them, you have a lot of memories that are in that character. Some are great like when get a great group together and you're pulling off 6 colour straights in Fellowship maneuvers one right after another. Or when you finally get that awesome shield that looks as incredible as it's stats. Or when you finally get to the end of the Shadows of Angmar epic series and you experience the climax when--er--I'll spare the details so to not spoil it, but it suffices to say it is awesome.
And then there are bad memories like when you wipe at a boss after a long instance, or like Linathor's grand example of a PuG group, Or when you find yourself grinding 400 trolls for some of that oh so important Valour trait.
And then there is just other distinct memories like when I to get from one side of the Misty Mountains to the other and at the time the only way I know of was straight through a fortress of giants. I tucked my beard in the belt, readied my shield, and braced myself for what was at the time the bravest--or stupidest--thing I've ever did as a tank. My though were something like, "I'm a tough Guardian, I can do this--I hope." I charged in there, running a gauntlet of epic proportions. The fortress was a labyrinth, and giants were everywhere. I was everything trick in the Guardian book of tanking to just stay alive long enough to get to the other side. Some times the Giants would be kind enough to hit me with a knockback which actually launched further ahead and out of melee ranged for awhile. And there it was, the exit. I'm almost there! Just a few more seconds, and then--*CRUCH*--Dwarven Pancake. So I didn't make it, but I at least found out later that there was a path was a path further north that was much easier and distinctly lacking in giants.
Uh, I think I digressed a bit--or a lot.
My point is that when you spend a lot time with your character, going to all those cool instances, exploring new areas, growing in power bit-by-bit all the while, you character almost starts to have a persona. They have life history in which you are intimately familiar with. And they are your character. Not someone else's. I guess that is my point. If you all you care about is being uber enough to "pwnz0r" everybody else, you don't really have an investment your character; They're not characters at all, they're tools.
So ya when you get to max level, you want things to do with that character whom you know so well. As Murgol said, it is just another step of the journey. You continue to have experiences some really cool, like trying out the radiance instances for the first time. And some a little frustrating like getting a pickup who is clueless and obnoxious and end up being the one to get the radiance item; and then he just picks up and leaves, not bothering to help others get their gear who help him get his.
So that is it really, your character is just that, a character. And they have a history, and as long as you continue to have experiences with that character (as long as you are ultimately having fun playing the game), that is all the really matters I think.
You can compare it a bit with childhood memories.
You wouldn't want to be born and POOF you are grown up with a good job getting everything.
You need to be able to be proud of your character like you would be proud of yourself.
If you lvl your character yourself you can be proud it's something you achieved and got to know while doing so.
Same as in real life. I didn't get my job as a paramedic by just simply buying a certificate and an outfit. I worked for it. I studied for it. Now I know what I can and what I can't do.
Then why would one buy a high lvl character.
0% involvement X 100% outcome = 0% pride
While
100% involvement X 100% outcome = 10000% pride.
How can one be proud by something he did not achieve himself?
And brilliant, insightful posts that really get at the heart of what I think are the unique qualities of LOTRO.
I played WoW for a brief time, mostly because our long-time guild moved there at its release. But I can't say I was ever able to get into it. Might just be petty preference on my part, but I play a game for the wonder of being swept away to another place that exists in a wholly different space than my everyday world. I didn't find any compelling story in WoW, just a lot of pop-culture facsimilies that annoyed me. If I wanted to listen to Eddie Murphy routines or watch John Travolta-Saturday Night Fever rehashes, I'd be channel surfing for the comedy channel or TNT. I found myself mostly bored on WoW, and could never get my character beyond 45 or something, and eventually quit. The atmosphere was just not there, and I felt like I was at a costume party of middle-schoolers for the most part, because the public chat channels were filled with petty, rude, childish stuff. I couldn't get out of there quick enough.
When I tried LOTRO, it was honestly with a skeptical demeanor. I've loved Tolkien's world since I'd read the books as a kid and really didn't feel anyone could do it proper justice. I'd been pretty disappointed with the films in turning the deep mythos of Middle Earth into what amounted to, in my opinion, a Hollywood-ized medieval action-adventure. Assuming a game could only further commercialize Tolkien's mythology, I was wasn't expecting much. But I was blown away with what I discovered instead. I was so caught up in the immediate story, those first few moments in the prison like Hirunath explained where you align with the mysterious ranger, and really feeling at once like I needed to help these people! That was pretty amazing for me. I moved right along with the story, forgetting all about that I was there to determine how bad this game going to be, and being completely absorbed only in what was happening around me. Wait--I'm in a game? And its--good? No way!
Now a game has got to be pretty damned outstanding to pull me out of my cynical demeanor, I'll say. ;)
In the last year and a half I have been so dazzled by the beauty of the world, which has amazingly managed to do Tolkien justice, and for the most part been quite faithful to the lore. I mean, if the story has been so successful, and become so iconic as it was written--why the need to change it? Unless you are of the caliber of Tolkien as a writer (in which case I doubt you should be wasting your time/ talent as a game dev when you could be better showcased as a full-time writer) you can only do worse by changing it.
Tolkien was very picky about anyone changing his lore, but he thought it would be great for other writers to come after him and continue to add to what he had already created. I feel the game devs have done a good job in exactly this, filling out the world around the central story. The quests in LOTRO are most often so well-written and absorbing, and in particuar the epic series. I can say I followed the last part of Volume 1 in the mesmerized way I followed a good book. I was so captivated and drawn into the tragic story of Amarthiel from the beginning--those first eerie flashbacks to her life thousands of years previous, had so much atmosphere and emotion, I thought I was watching a really good movie--and I don't think there are that many good movies made to begin with. ;)
And not to give any spoilers for anyone who hasn't completed the series yet, but the conclusion was one of the most exciting and powerful quest finales I can imagine ever written. You are kept guessing to the very end. At the conclusion of the series, you get a portrait of Narmaleth/Amarthiel, which I have displayed in my LOTRO home. Every time I look at that portrait I remember what a cool encounter and story that whole experience was. :)
So yeah, it's been fun getting close to the end game (or the current end game, which won't really be the end game), and collecting all the radiance gear for the big watcher raid, but I won't say that has been any better, or any more fun or rewarding than anything I've experienced in the game previously, and the portrait of Narmaleth hanging on my wall is just as cool and valuable to me as my Stonereaders and Hall-General's armor hanging on my shoulders. ;)
Good job on all of it Turbine. Keep up the good work.
Well, it seems we are all of the same mind on MMOs... Excellent math, Hir... and very true. I've never understood the concept of buying gold, characters, levels, etc. for the same reasons you've all mentioned here (no pride, no involvement, you have no concept on how to play a top-level toon, etc).
Hirunath really hit it on the head...
"How can one be proud of something he did not achieve himself?"
So, another question... do you all thing there is a certain "type" of person (age, etc) that tends to look at MMOs this way, or this just strictly a personality trait (ie., gimme gimme!)?
It takes a special kind of person to enjoy a game the way we do it.
At first you need to be a fantasy lover. If you don't like fantasy you probably won't enjoy this game the way we do.
Second you can't be a gamer who wants nothing but fast results and power. If that is something you crave you won't take the time to really enjoy the world. Period.
Age. That's a tough one. I know young players -16 that show really good interest in the game. On the other hand I have seen +30 people who are just power hungry and are flamers. But on the whole I must say that the majority of players on my server, which is a roleplay server, are in it to enjoy the game for the story and the great world and about 75% of them are at least 20+ and regular even 30+. So this leads me to say that the older player on the general is more laid back and enjoys the stories better then their underage counterparts.
Last but not least. OK people I'm going out on thin ice here with nothing to save myself from destruction wrecked by the combined forces of the members of this forum.
I'm talking demographics. I split it up in 4 groups. European, Asian, American and African. Let me elaborate.
I find that there is a difference in playing style from each of these different groups.
European: Laid back not to high performance
Asian: Very high performance and friendly
American: More aggressive playing style
African: Kind of like european.
Do not get me wrong here. I'm not some sort of racist that hates a specific group. This is just what I experienced in playing with them. This off course does not apply to every single individual in that certain group. You got very high performance and aggressive players with europeans and you have very laid back and friendly american players. But when I look at the entire population on average I notice those differences. This might have something to do with the difference in culture. I do not know the reason. It's just an observation. Be free to think different about this then I do. And I would certainly like to hear if you guys have noticed anything like that as well.
Ok guys. I said it. I can't take it back now and it's out there. I know that this is a difficult subject. But if there is one thing that I have learned in my career is "Seize the day" and don't be affraid to question things or to bring up hard subjects.
I think you have to be a good story lover, mainly, someone with an appreciation for good lore and deep, layered story-telling. Fantasy is a great genre, but a lot of it can be bad story-telling, as any genre can be. A really good story transcends its genre. Many of us were introduced to fantasy by the master story-teller himself, J.R.R. Tolkien, and sometimes (in my case anyway) subsequently made the mistake of thinking all fantasy was going to be as good.
What I eventually found is what makes Tolkien's story so great is his ability for meaning and depth, his subtle characterizations, and very mythic themes. These same aspects exist in other writers and genres too I've discovered, and I have found I've liked other books or genres, or even films just as much, when they've displayed that same ability for meaning and depth. Turbine does a good job of keeping the game story-intensive, and largely good story at that, so people who are drawn to this sort of thing (i.e., LOTRO) are often more introspective, and more likely to stop and want to pause along the way to just enjoy the scenery.
Usually they are more mature as well, though maturity often has little to do with actual age. We've had young teens in our guild before, and found them as intelligent and appreciative of a good story as some of our older members, so there's not much to chronology as a good meter of maturity. And more age is not necessarily a positive when it comes to getting into this kind of stuff either, because some older people tend to lose their sense of wonder, or think that interests like gaming, or even fantasy, is childish. So it's really much more in the person's makeup than it is in his/her actual age.
And as far as demographics and cultural types go, I think it's very often ironic that many people tend to revel in their cultural differences and attitudes and values. They like being culturally diverse as a way of thinking, speaking, interacting. Many nations have even gone out of their way to be "culturally sensitive" to people of different ethnicities or backgrounds/homelands. Yet the moment someone suggests there is a central "ethic demeanor," people get very suddenly paranoid, sensitive, or even offended, like how dare anyone suggest they are different. Ironic. :)
Ya, I'm not very PC like that. But then I'm also fascinated by culture, all cultures, and find diversities very cool and evocative, so I can hardly be called a "culturalist." ;) Whatever, people really just need to stop having double standards in how they want to present themselves, and how they want others to view them. And we need to rid ourselves of the hyper-stigma and fear of saying something that might offend someone of a different culture because I think it's gone way overboard. (Of course, truly racists/hate comments don't apply here: those are all bad.)
I'm American, and that's mostly what I find on my server, so it's hard for me to compare with many other demographic groups. It's quite possible Americans tend to be more aggressive and goal-oriented and end-game followers, but no one in our kin is at all that way, so again it's hard to say. We sometimes group with Australians, probably more than other nationalities, and I've always found them very nice and very friendly, often with a good sense of humor. ;) Once in a while we have grouped with Europeans too, and I have found them very nice and polite, maybe a little more reserved. But I don't have a very large pool to make a valid statistical survey, so its just my very general impressions. :)
Last but not least. OK people I'm going out on thin ice here with nothing to save myself from destruction wrecked by the combined forces of the members of this forum.
I'm talking demographics. I split it up in 4 groups. European, Asian, American and African. Let me elaborate.
I find that there is a difference in playing style from each of these different groups.
European: Laid back not to high performance
Asian: Very high performance and friendly
American: More aggressive playing style
African: Kind of like european.
Do not get me wrong here. I'm not some sort of racist that hates a specific group. This is just what I experienced in playing with them. This off course does not apply to every single individual in that certain group. You got very high performance and aggressive players with europeans and you have very laid back and friendly american players. But when I look at the entire population on average I notice those differences. This might have something to do with the difference in culture. I do not know the reason. It's just an observation. Be free to think different about this then I do. And I would certainly like to hear if you guys have noticed anything like that as well.
Ok guys. I said it. I can't take it back now and it's out there. I know that this is a difficult subject. But if there is one thing that I have learned in my career is "Seize the day" and don't be affraid to question things or to bring up hard subjects.
*Jumps and ducks for cover*
When talking about Americans, ya I've had a lot of experience with that group; and ya they certainly seem to have a general tendency to be aggressive in their gaming. Of course not everyone has those traits, but it is certainly a trend. But even within that group that is aggressive I observe varying degrees of graduation n which that aggressiveness is expressed. Sometimes you get people who are simply extremely eager to play well, get a powerful character, and stuff like that, but are also generally polite can helpful to others. While on the other hand, you get some crazy vicious players that want nothing more than to get powerful at the inconsideration--or even expense--of other players, and spend a majority of their play time harassing other players. There are shades of grey in everything, as I always say.
Also, my experience with Asian players is limited to hearsay, but the general impression that I have gotten is very much like you described. The few European and Australian players I've played with have generally seemed all quite polite. I think a while we also had a player from Israel, who we grouped with. He was a rather a nice guy to.
Well, as an RP'er, nothing has ever been simple for me. Heck, lvling was a problem, and when I it 50, they brought out lvl 60!
But alas, I stand currently at 3/6 Radiance Armour, for my Hunter, Andarne Lamaen of Lorien ^^ I saw the new +20 Radiance Armour, so in order to get those, Im gonna try my luck at the +15 Radiance (though they are a bit shoddy stat-wise).
The radiance quests, however, I think are the game's bane, they make no sense...and to be quite frank, remind me of something a little W...O...W
I wont go as far as saying they are as bad as WOW but the feeling is similar on a 5th or 6th venture into the same instance. It's that end game effort in most games where I start to loose interest. At least with Lotro you can go in with a group of 6 for lots of the content.
I shudder to think of 25 or 50 man raid? Pure insanity for the 1 in 10 chance that your item will drop and then a 1 in 10 chance you will win the roll!
I always thought that end game needed pvp content to keep up interest but I am not so sure anymore. At 50 I played Edenmores for abotu 4 months in pickup when our kinship participation began to wane. It was alot of fun for the first couple of months but I slowly lost interest.
I thought that WAR had fixed that problem and PVP was 90% of what I did and it was also great fun but after 8 months and a couple of 35/40 characters It became the same thing each night and I no longer play.
The best thing in endgame Lotro are the book quests. They are fresh and only need to be done once or maybe twice (to figure them out or help Kin). Some have had way too much fed-ex segments but on the whole they are what keep me interested.
Well, my experience of getting radiance armour is pretty limited... considering I'm level 29 in the North Downs. Does it count as Radiant if I cover my Cloak of Moderate Usefulness with Shiny Baubles?
I'm not really sure. But i think that glittering lipgloss would count. Aren't you elves into that kinda stuff?
Anyway my experience with radiance gear is limited as I am only lvl 53. The most experience I have with it is that it hurts your eyes when those guys pass you in broad daylight.
All this hoodoo about radiance gear can sometimes be a bit controversial. Some folks will tell you that the game is a journey, and that any rush to get to 60 and get all the "uber" gear is missing the point. This is a very valid concern. Most of us at LOTROinfo have been playing a very long time and are only now reaching this threshold. For the most part, I don't think we rushed it.
But still, every MMO must deal with the reality that eventually players reach a maximum level. A maximum that must exist purely for the sake of game balance (why bother designing interesting encounters if players are going to stomp all over them through sheer power). There is fair bit of group content for lower level players, but a lot of it gets passed over by a large portion of the player base. (Garth Agarwen and Fornost, and to a lesser extent, the Great Barrows, I'm looking at you). Therefore, it often seems to make a lot of sense to design a sizable portion of content for players at the level cap, so that they have stuff to do when they reach it. I don't see it as the end of the journey. Just another part of it.
I'm very interested in what you guys, even the low level folks, think about all this. Is it something you might look forward to in even the remotest future, or does it really not interest you at all? Do you have any specific concerns with how it is implemented (such as how everyone starts to look the same)? Does the prospect of potentially doing the same content multiple times leave a bad taste in your mouth? Your opinion counts too.
It's an interesting question.
I have played some MMO's but in only 2 I have come close to raiding.
LOTRO and WOW
In WOW I was actually ready. I was top lvl and attuned to kharazan but then for some reason I just stopped playing. Now what was that reason again? Oh Right. LOTRO.
In Lotro I am close to raiding as I'm nearing the lvl cap and I intend to play the game till the developers say "Enough is enough Mr Hirunath. All other players have allready quit you are the only one left. Besides the nurses are waiting to change your diaper and put you in bed". So I'm pretty sure I'll be a raider too. And the prospect of doing somethings over and over again don't really bother me. Right now when I reach the lvl cap and I start raiding it'll be all new to me but the bosses will probably be farm material once they have the correct strategy. So raiding becomes a bit a routine. But I have no fear of this. LOTR is such a deep world with soo many possibilities that there will be new instances with new bosses and they need to be raided tested and subdued as well. I can't wait to be part of a raid who enters a totally new boss his lair and try ways to kill it.
On the matter of the lower lvl content I must say that I have had the chance of going into every instance there was, except Fornost. I defeated sambrog, Ivar, the redmaid (can't remember what she's called). I've done in helchgam and others. But as you say there are a lot of people who burn through the lvls to reach that maximum lvl and start gathering that great gear.
On my server this leads to hard to find fellowships for lower lvl instances. They just want to get the Epic chain out of the way and move on. Also I tend to think that people these days have the attention span of a fly with ADHD.
They simply don't plan ahead anymore. For instance I am searching for someone to help me on an epic quest. I have been asking around for hours when I finally find a fellowship I see people starting to LFF for that same quest I have been asking around for for 3 hours. Mind you these are not people that just logged in. These are people I have come across in the area while LFFing.
Players these days don't look at there lff screens no more unless it so happens to be the quest they are on at that exact moment. I can't remember how many times I got a fellowship quest done when I wasn't seeking a fellowship by watching the lff screen and seeing someone who needs company on a fellowship quest that I have in my quest list.
That's one part. The other part is about people wanting to squeeze the maximum gain out of the shortest playing time possible. Mind you I do this too but I'm squeezing out the fun. A lot of players these days simply skip beautifull instances just for the fact that it doesn't give them as good XP compared to the time invested in the instance as they would get with normal questing.
They are missing a great world with a lot of lore for the simple effect of "Durh. I'm lvl 60 and I can Pwnzor all these guys. I'm 2 l33T 4 U." (God that's an awefull language)
Anyway
This is me again ranting away.
Greetings
Niels
PS: I now have to go wash myself to wash away the L33T speak stench.
Hi All,
Here's my 3 copper's worth:
After playing Runescape, WoW and now LOTRO, there are definitely the same types of people in all games...
When I first joined LOTRO my immediate thought was that I enjoyed the friendliness of the people in the game. Some lady from a Lore-Master guild sent me a message and asked me if I needed any help. Since I'd only been playing for about three days on a trial account, I graciously accepted. Four days later my account expired and that was lost, but I remembered the kind heart.
I've played WoW with some guys who were always interested in raiding, PvP, Warsong Gulch etc. I can certainly appreciate the need/greed of those scenarios, but I've always been interested in the more immersive play. (for example, I used to hang out in Westfall in case people need some help, with my lvl 60 warlock). I never made it to endgame, though I came close at the time (level 69). My friends used to run around from quest to quest, not even reading the text, just the "what do I need to get" parts. No wonder they were raiding while I was mining in Darkshire.
These same guys are now playing LOTRO, and for some reason, they've slowed down quite a bit. They are reading the content, and sometime actually sending me messages about it. Wow (no pun intended). That's astounding. There is something about LOTRO that keeps people coming back, and slowing them down to an enjoyable pace.
As for the epic books... I was so caught up in the content of the game in general, the richness of the environment (flowing trees, nice sky, etc), that I didn't even realize I was following an epic path until it said "You have completed the intro quests" and dumped me into Book I. Pretty cool that it's so seamless, and that you can choose to follow (or not) the Epic quest line, come back to it whenever you want, and just randomly run around everywhere. I also don't miss the days of being accidentally flagged as PvP and getting my butt kicked by a level 70 horde. :)
So, all of that blah blah blah, just to say that there are still people in LOTRO who use abbreviations for everything "LFF 2.4 3/4 healer dps dot pdq asap rsvp", and there are still people who RP non-strop ("Agell nods her head slightly to the man as he leaves the Prancing Pony before turning back to Rogald and continuing their conversation..."), and there are still people who have nothing better to do than to whine about who's going to run them through what ("I know I'm only a 14 minstrel, but I really need Orth, can sum1 run me? plz i'll pay 15s for your time /beg"). And of course, there's the bickering inside guilds (that usually have made me stay as a lone adventurer for the most part) "Well he's not very nice, he said I should ask my mom's permission, but she's busy running my younger brother through Fornost /stickstongueout" - "yeah, GM can you kick him? my alts need invites too, can you promote me to officer so I can invite them (and my friends and their 95 alts) /please"
People don't change, just the games they play. However, LOTRO tends to attract some more mature gamers who are as interested in learning the lore as helping others get through some tough spots.
Vive LOTRO!
Lin
Well that is just beautifull.
I must say that what you say is absolutly right.
It takes all different sorts of people that play a game.
Some like it this way some like it the other. But the fact that lotro draws in more mature players then wow does is absolutly right.
As a former WoW player I must say that I too never read the quests in wow. Reason?
1) They were way too big at times.
2) There was no noteworthy story that bound the areas together. Off course most players know the story from warcraft but to be honest. It isn't all that. There was a war. Things got dead and dead things got somewhat upgraded to "not so dead". But what am I doing here? I popped into a world and the first thing they asked me was "Go kill 10 kobolds". Euhm. Where am I? What the hell am I doing here? Who the hell are you actually? Those are all questions that weren't answered in WoW. So people tend to not care after a while. The answers weren't gonna come so why bother to ask?
In lotro on the other hand you come into the world with a story. You are locked into a prison with a ranger named Haldir who asks you to help him break out and give those bandits a good wooping. At the end of that simple but wonderfull instance and a short tutorial to the game you arrive in a town with same wounded ranger. The town is beset by the same bandits that locked us up so they must be friends as they are taking care of our wounds. Let's help em out. And as a grand finisher you help in the defence of the town as the bandits attack it. You come out as victorious and feel great for having done such a great thing even at that lvl and you can't wait to find more people that are in need of something valuable stolen by some orcs or bandits. At the same time in WoW our new adventurer arrives in a new town and is asked to kill some boars because they want to make some stew. You are going to make stew for HOW MANY people?
In lotro you arrive in every area with a purpose that led you there through a nicely woven together story and quests that make sense. (Most of them anyway)
I think this is what makes people slow down. They are living a story that evolves and goes on around them through a beautifull world created over a period of 50 years by a mastermind in literature. It has it's own story everything has it's purpose it has a DETAILED 5000+ year history. You see that history everywhere.
This is a fact that simply is not and I doubt that it will ever again be offered in any game. I advice people not only to see the movies but read the books as well. Read them in English as otherwise a lot of the translation is lost. When you have read the book you know what old forrest is. You know what Bombadil does living there.
When you have read the book you actually will go out exploring. You want to see all the places discribed in the book. I have been to the three trolls even before I got the quest. Simply because of the fact that I wanted to see them.
Hmm I think I went a bit off topic there.
Anyway in short what I wanted to say is that LOTRO has a dept to it and a way to pull you in that no other game can match.
Greetings
Niels
Some people have the ridiculous idea of buying a high level character with "uber" gear. Just so that they can run around /yelling "I'm uB3rz. I du3l and pwnz ne1z. Du3l me or u r sc4r3d!1!!11!"
It is that same idea that people will buy a game and then just use cheat-codes to the game in God-mode or whatever. The irony that they are never aware of in both these cases that they get bored soon and stop playing. Why? I think it comes down to this: Because they don't feel they have as much of investment. They bought their character so it doesn't really feel like "their" character. They also don't really know how to play so they really can't do anything at an endgame level. So go figure.
On the other hand, when you get own character to high level, not only do you have all that time and effort stored in them, you have a lot of memories that are in that character. Some are great like when get a great group together and you're pulling off 6 colour straights in Fellowship maneuvers one right after another. Or when you finally get that awesome shield that looks as incredible as it's stats. Or when you finally get to the end of the Shadows of Angmar epic series and you experience the climax when--er--I'll spare the details so to not spoil it, but it suffices to say it is awesome.
And then there are bad memories like when you wipe at a boss after a long instance, or like Linathor's grand example of a PuG group, Or when you find yourself grinding 400 trolls for some of that oh so important Valour trait.
And then there is just other distinct memories like when I to get from one side of the Misty Mountains to the other and at the time the only way I know of was straight through a fortress of giants. I tucked my beard in the belt, readied my shield, and braced myself for what was at the time the bravest--or stupidest--thing I've ever did as a tank. My though were something like, "I'm a tough Guardian, I can do this--I hope." I charged in there, running a gauntlet of epic proportions. The fortress was a labyrinth, and giants were everywhere. I was everything trick in the Guardian book of tanking to just stay alive long enough to get to the other side. Some times the Giants would be kind enough to hit me with a knockback which actually launched further ahead and out of melee ranged for awhile. And there it was, the exit. I'm almost there! Just a few more seconds, and then--*CRUCH*--Dwarven Pancake. So I didn't make it, but I at least found out later that there was a path was a path further north that was much easier and distinctly lacking in giants.
Uh, I think I digressed a bit--or a lot.
My point is that when you spend a lot time with your character, going to all those cool instances, exploring new areas, growing in power bit-by-bit all the while, you character almost starts to have a persona. They have life history in which you are intimately familiar with. And they are your character. Not someone else's. I guess that is my point. If you all you care about is being uber enough to "pwnz0r" everybody else, you don't really have an investment your character; They're not characters at all, they're tools.
So ya when you get to max level, you want things to do with that character whom you know so well. As Murgol said, it is just another step of the journey. You continue to have experiences some really cool, like trying out the radiance instances for the first time. And some a little frustrating like getting a pickup who is clueless and obnoxious and end up being the one to get the radiance item; and then he just picks up and leaves, not bothering to help others get their gear who help him get his.
So that is it really, your character is just that, a character. And they have a history, and as long as you continue to have experiences with that character (as long as you are ultimately having fun playing the game), that is all the really matters I think.
Yes that is it exactly.
You can compare it a bit with childhood memories.
You wouldn't want to be born and POOF you are grown up with a good job getting everything.
You need to be able to be proud of your character like you would be proud of yourself.
If you lvl your character yourself you can be proud it's something you achieved and got to know while doing so.
Same as in real life. I didn't get my job as a paramedic by just simply buying a certificate and an outfit. I worked for it. I studied for it. Now I know what I can and what I can't do.
Then why would one buy a high lvl character.
0% involvement X 100% outcome = 0% pride
While
100% involvement X 100% outcome = 10000% pride.
How can one be proud by something he did not achieve himself?
Yep, yep good points.
And brilliant, insightful posts that really get at the heart of what I think are the unique qualities of LOTRO.
I played WoW for a brief time, mostly because our long-time guild moved there at its release. But I can't say I was ever able to get into it. Might just be petty preference on my part, but I play a game for the wonder of being swept away to another place that exists in a wholly different space than my everyday world. I didn't find any compelling story in WoW, just a lot of pop-culture facsimilies that annoyed me. If I wanted to listen to Eddie Murphy routines or watch John Travolta-Saturday Night Fever rehashes, I'd be channel surfing for the comedy channel or TNT. I found myself mostly bored on WoW, and could never get my character beyond 45 or something, and eventually quit. The atmosphere was just not there, and I felt like I was at a costume party of middle-schoolers for the most part, because the public chat channels were filled with petty, rude, childish stuff. I couldn't get out of there quick enough.
When I tried LOTRO, it was honestly with a skeptical demeanor. I've loved Tolkien's world since I'd read the books as a kid and really didn't feel anyone could do it proper justice. I'd been pretty disappointed with the films in turning the deep mythos of Middle Earth into what amounted to, in my opinion, a Hollywood-ized medieval action-adventure. Assuming a game could only further commercialize Tolkien's mythology, I was wasn't expecting much. But I was blown away with what I discovered instead. I was so caught up in the immediate story, those first few moments in the prison like Hirunath explained where you align with the mysterious ranger, and really feeling at once like I needed to help these people! That was pretty amazing for me. I moved right along with the story, forgetting all about that I was there to determine how bad this game going to be, and being completely absorbed only in what was happening around me. Wait--I'm in a game? And its--good? No way!
Now a game has got to be pretty damned outstanding to pull me out of my cynical demeanor, I'll say. ;)
In the last year and a half I have been so dazzled by the beauty of the world, which has amazingly managed to do Tolkien justice, and for the most part been quite faithful to the lore. I mean, if the story has been so successful, and become so iconic as it was written--why the need to change it? Unless you are of the caliber of Tolkien as a writer (in which case I doubt you should be wasting your time/ talent as a game dev when you could be better showcased as a full-time writer) you can only do worse by changing it.
Tolkien was very picky about anyone changing his lore, but he thought it would be great for other writers to come after him and continue to add to what he had already created. I feel the game devs have done a good job in exactly this, filling out the world around the central story. The quests in LOTRO are most often so well-written and absorbing, and in particuar the epic series. I can say I followed the last part of Volume 1 in the mesmerized way I followed a good book. I was so captivated and drawn into the tragic story of Amarthiel from the beginning--those first eerie flashbacks to her life thousands of years previous, had so much atmosphere and emotion, I thought I was watching a really good movie--and I don't think there are that many good movies made to begin with. ;)
And not to give any spoilers for anyone who hasn't completed the series yet, but the conclusion was one of the most exciting and powerful quest finales I can imagine ever written. You are kept guessing to the very end. At the conclusion of the series, you get a portrait of Narmaleth/Amarthiel, which I have displayed in my LOTRO home. Every time I look at that portrait I remember what a cool encounter and story that whole experience was. :)
So yeah, it's been fun getting close to the end game (or the current end game, which won't really be the end game), and collecting all the radiance gear for the big watcher raid, but I won't say that has been any better, or any more fun or rewarding than anything I've experienced in the game previously, and the portrait of Narmaleth hanging on my wall is just as cool and valuable to me as my Stonereaders and Hall-General's armor hanging on my shoulders. ;)
Good job on all of it Turbine. Keep up the good work.
Well, it seems we are all of the same mind on MMOs... Excellent math, Hir... and very true. I've never understood the concept of buying gold, characters, levels, etc. for the same reasons you've all mentioned here (no pride, no involvement, you have no concept on how to play a top-level toon, etc).
Hirunath really hit it on the head...
"How can one be proud of something he did not achieve himself?"
So, another question... do you all thing there is a certain "type" of person (age, etc) that tends to look at MMOs this way, or this just strictly a personality trait (ie., gimme gimme!)?
Lin
It is a very interesting question you ask there.
The right person...
It takes a special kind of person to enjoy a game the way we do it.
At first you need to be a fantasy lover. If you don't like fantasy you probably won't enjoy this game the way we do.
Second you can't be a gamer who wants nothing but fast results and power. If that is something you crave you won't take the time to really enjoy the world. Period.
Age. That's a tough one. I know young players -16 that show really good interest in the game. On the other hand I have seen +30 people who are just power hungry and are flamers. But on the whole I must say that the majority of players on my server, which is a roleplay server, are in it to enjoy the game for the story and the great world and about 75% of them are at least 20+ and regular even 30+. So this leads me to say that the older player on the general is more laid back and enjoys the stories better then their underage counterparts.
Last but not least. OK people I'm going out on thin ice here with nothing to save myself from destruction wrecked by the combined forces of the members of this forum.
I'm talking demographics. I split it up in 4 groups. European, Asian, American and African. Let me elaborate.
I find that there is a difference in playing style from each of these different groups.
European: Laid back not to high performance
Asian: Very high performance and friendly
American: More aggressive playing style
African: Kind of like european.
Do not get me wrong here. I'm not some sort of racist that hates a specific group. This is just what I experienced in playing with them. This off course does not apply to every single individual in that certain group. You got very high performance and aggressive players with europeans and you have very laid back and friendly american players. But when I look at the entire population on average I notice those differences. This might have something to do with the difference in culture. I do not know the reason. It's just an observation. Be free to think different about this then I do. And I would certainly like to hear if you guys have noticed anything like that as well.
Ok guys. I said it. I can't take it back now and it's out there. I know that this is a difficult subject. But if there is one thing that I have learned in my career is "Seize the day" and don't be affraid to question things or to bring up hard subjects.
*Jumps and ducks for cover*
I think you have to be a good story lover, mainly, someone with an appreciation for good lore and deep, layered story-telling. Fantasy is a great genre, but a lot of it can be bad story-telling, as any genre can be. A really good story transcends its genre. Many of us were introduced to fantasy by the master story-teller himself, J.R.R. Tolkien, and sometimes (in my case anyway) subsequently made the mistake of thinking all fantasy was going to be as good.
What I eventually found is what makes Tolkien's story so great is his ability for meaning and depth, his subtle characterizations, and very mythic themes. These same aspects exist in other writers and genres too I've discovered, and I have found I've liked other books or genres, or even films just as much, when they've displayed that same ability for meaning and depth. Turbine does a good job of keeping the game story-intensive, and largely good story at that, so people who are drawn to this sort of thing (i.e., LOTRO) are often more introspective, and more likely to stop and want to pause along the way to just enjoy the scenery.
Usually they are more mature as well, though maturity often has little to do with actual age. We've had young teens in our guild before, and found them as intelligent and appreciative of a good story as some of our older members, so there's not much to chronology as a good meter of maturity. And more age is not necessarily a positive when it comes to getting into this kind of stuff either, because some older people tend to lose their sense of wonder, or think that interests like gaming, or even fantasy, is childish. So it's really much more in the person's makeup than it is in his/her actual age.
And as far as demographics and cultural types go, I think it's very often ironic that many people tend to revel in their cultural differences and attitudes and values. They like being culturally diverse as a way of thinking, speaking, interacting. Many nations have even gone out of their way to be "culturally sensitive" to people of different ethnicities or backgrounds/homelands. Yet the moment someone suggests there is a central "ethic demeanor," people get very suddenly paranoid, sensitive, or even offended, like how dare anyone suggest they are different. Ironic. :)
Ya, I'm not very PC like that. But then I'm also fascinated by culture, all cultures, and find diversities very cool and evocative, so I can hardly be called a "culturalist." ;) Whatever, people really just need to stop having double standards in how they want to present themselves, and how they want others to view them. And we need to rid ourselves of the hyper-stigma and fear of saying something that might offend someone of a different culture because I think it's gone way overboard. (Of course, truly racists/hate comments don't apply here: those are all bad.)
I'm American, and that's mostly what I find on my server, so it's hard for me to compare with many other demographic groups. It's quite possible Americans tend to be more aggressive and goal-oriented and end-game followers, but no one in our kin is at all that way, so again it's hard to say. We sometimes group with Australians, probably more than other nationalities, and I've always found them very nice and very friendly, often with a good sense of humor. ;) Once in a while we have grouped with Europeans too, and I have found them very nice and polite, maybe a little more reserved. But I don't have a very large pool to make a valid statistical survey, so its just my very general impressions. :)
Any other thoughts from anyone?
I'm talking demographics. I split it up in 4 groups. European, Asian, American and African. Let me elaborate.
I find that there is a difference in playing style from each of these different groups.
European: Laid back not to high performance
Asian: Very high performance and friendly
American: More aggressive playing style
African: Kind of like european.
Do not get me wrong here. I'm not some sort of racist that hates a specific group. This is just what I experienced in playing with them. This off course does not apply to every single individual in that certain group. You got very high performance and aggressive players with europeans and you have very laid back and friendly american players. But when I look at the entire population on average I notice those differences. This might have something to do with the difference in culture. I do not know the reason. It's just an observation. Be free to think different about this then I do. And I would certainly like to hear if you guys have noticed anything like that as well.
Ok guys. I said it. I can't take it back now and it's out there. I know that this is a difficult subject. But if there is one thing that I have learned in my career is "Seize the day" and don't be affraid to question things or to bring up hard subjects.
*Jumps and ducks for cover*
When talking about Americans, ya I've had a lot of experience with that group; and ya they certainly seem to have a general tendency to be aggressive in their gaming. Of course not everyone has those traits, but it is certainly a trend. But even within that group that is aggressive I observe varying degrees of graduation n which that aggressiveness is expressed. Sometimes you get people who are simply extremely eager to play well, get a powerful character, and stuff like that, but are also generally polite can helpful to others. While on the other hand, you get some crazy vicious players that want nothing more than to get powerful at the inconsideration--or even expense--of other players, and spend a majority of their play time harassing other players. There are shades of grey in everything, as I always say.
Also, my experience with Asian players is limited to hearsay, but the general impression that I have gotten is very much like you described. The few European and Australian players I've played with have generally seemed all quite polite. I think a while we also had a player from Israel, who we grouped with. He was a rather a nice guy to.
Well, as an RP'er, nothing has ever been simple for me. Heck, lvling was a problem, and when I it 50, they brought out lvl 60!
But alas, I stand currently at 3/6 Radiance Armour, for my Hunter, Andarne Lamaen of Lorien ^^ I saw the new +20 Radiance Armour, so in order to get those, Im gonna try my luck at the +15 Radiance (though they are a bit shoddy stat-wise).
The radiance quests, however, I think are the game's bane, they make no sense...and to be quite frank, remind me of something a little W...O...W
*sighs and remembers the old days*
I wont go as far as saying they are as bad as WOW but the feeling is similar on a 5th or 6th venture into the same instance. It's that end game effort in most games where I start to loose interest. At least with Lotro you can go in with a group of 6 for lots of the content.
I shudder to think of 25 or 50 man raid? Pure insanity for the 1 in 10 chance that your item will drop and then a 1 in 10 chance you will win the roll!
I always thought that end game needed pvp content to keep up interest but I am not so sure anymore. At 50 I played Edenmores for abotu 4 months in pickup when our kinship participation began to wane. It was alot of fun for the first couple of months but I slowly lost interest.
I thought that WAR had fixed that problem and PVP was 90% of what I did and it was also great fun but after 8 months and a couple of 35/40 characters It became the same thing each night and I no longer play.
The best thing in endgame Lotro are the book quests. They are fresh and only need to be done once or maybe twice (to figure them out or help Kin). Some have had way too much fed-ex segments but on the whole they are what keep me interested.